Hello BCMC Mountaineers,

Please mention this posting to members you know who may not be active on this website.

I am starting this forum topic to gauge club members opinions on the "no charge" training which is currently offered by the volunteers at the BCMC.  We are looking at ways to encourage:

a) A high level of training quality

b) A high level of trainee output.  Meaning that a person, once having taken the training, should be able to perform ALL necessary skills for mountaineering.

c) A training session schedule which provides for at least 26 training sessions annually.

d) A low barrier environment so that everyone who would like to access training can.

e) A low turn-over in volunteer trainers, encouraging quality/consistency/continual improvement/succession planning.

So far two paths have been proposed, and I am sure that there are many good ideas out there on different paths, or perhaps modifications to these two paths:

1) A one week training session, foussed on producing volunteer trainers.  The course would only be open to members with a suitable experience level, and would be geared towards "polishing" their skill set.    Course cost would be $200, reimbursed when the trainer has completed two training sessions.  Training session organizer as yet undetermined.

2) A "train the trainer" program which would take only 5 interested members who are willing to volunteer a substantial amount of time, and with this group conduct group training sessions geared towards producing a core group of dedicated members who would provide no charge training sessions within the BCMC.  There would be no charge for these training sessions, but there would be an expectation that a member is joining this program with the understanding that they would be volunteering a number of weekends each year to pass on their knowledge. Training program organizer could be Justin Bennett.

As always, my training sessions with the BCMC are intended to prepare BCMC members for, or supplement existing, courses that the member has or will take with entities such as Canada West, Squamish Rock Guides, Yamnuska, etc.   

I would love to hear your feedback on:

- how much training does someone need before they can run a training session?

- are there members out there who are interested in dedicating 5+ weekends annually to run training sessions?

- should the free training sessions with members be killed, and simply move to a fully guide led pay course program?

- how would you assess if someone was "qualified" to pass their skill set on?

- should there be an incentive to become a volunteer trainer?

- how closely should the model follow the long history of mentorship within the mountaineering community?

- if you are a seasoned, experienced, mountaineer... what is stopping you from passing on the knowledge that you have?

- anything else on your mind on this topic.

Thank you,

Justin Bennett

I hope some people reply with their thoughts. Help us help you!!!

how much training does someone need before they can run a training session?

I imagine this varies between people, and also with what skills you're teaching.

are there members out there who are interested in dedicating 5+ weekends annually to run training sessions?

I would be, but I would prefer to just teach introductory skills.

should there be an incentive to become a volunteer trainer?

I think this is pretty necessary if you want a low turn-over in volunteer trainers.

if you are a seasoned, experienced, mountaineer... what is stopping you from passing on the knowledge that you have?

I'm not that experienced, but the main thing is that I often find people who are really eager for the training, and then for some reason or another, disappear. I would prefer to help train people who are willing to stick around and lead trips for the club. One way to mitigate this is (if possible) to require people to have gone on a couple trips before giving them training. Also, requiring people to organize trips after having been trained (like the ACC does) might be a good idea.

anything else on your mind on this topic.

For some things, I think a curriculum would be helpful. Actual teaching isn't necessarily a lot of work, but the preparation can be.

Thanks for your input Trick! I think you've got a lot of valid points!

I don't have enough experience to be a trainer or provide much input on the best strategy to recruit and maintain the quality of trainers. However, I did want to say that I think it would be a shame if the BCMC's free (or at least, affordable) training programs were to end, leaving those of us thirsty for mountaineering knowledge with the prohibitively expensive prospect of having to pay for training from for-profit professional guides. The very high cost of consultant guides IS a major barrier to gaining mountaineering skill in a safe, progressive fashion. At the same time, it is totally understandable if volunteer trainers need an incentive, and I for one am more than happy to pay a certain amount for quality instruction (assuming it is much cheaper than the $1000+ price tag for most basic private mountaineering courses).

Cheers,

Maine

I think that mountaineering skills are constantly being learned and improved and as such there is no hard and fast rule on how much training you need before you can teach. Some people are good teachers and safe and others have been out and might appear to be experienced but are not or cant convey their knowledge.

I think free training is key. Members always have the option of going out and hiring a guide and learning that way. I think passing knowledge on is one of the great things about a club. the less experienced can learn from the more experienced.

I would be very willing to lead and help out with training. Not that I know everything but I think that in general I know more than some members who are just starting out and I would like to pass the info along as others did for me. What holds me back is the organization time. ie I love to get out on the weekends but I am often busy mid week.

For those that think an incentive is important for volunteer course instructors, do you think the new recognition program is adequate for keep volunteer instructors to keep teaching or do you think there needs to be a distinction of incentive between trip organizers and course instructors?

Alan, Maine, Ben, thanks for your response.  Understanding how the club members view the volunteer training is important to improving the training that is offered.  I would really like to hear from a lot more members on this.  New members... but also more importantly, older members who probablely do look at these courses as they don't really need the training (or perhaps already have a core group extermal to the BCMC that they practice with). 

As for my own viewpoints on this matter, I will lay them out here. These are my personal beliefs.

1) All volunteer training should be at no charge to club members.  I believe that since there is a good liklihood that at some point in the future I might be tied to you, that it is in my best interests to ensure that you know what you are doing, and vice versa.  I would not want to see any kind of barrier for individuals who strive to learn how to mountaineer in the safest manner they can.  In addition, the volunteers are not ACMG guides, nor will they be accrediting people.  I have been very lucky that my early mountaineering started with people I met in the mountains taking me out and "mentoring" me (although they would have laughed if I had suggested they were "mentors").  The mountaineering community has always been about selfless acts, teaching a friend, building trust and comradeship.  I have a lot of trouble reconciling that with a pay structure for training.

2) Courses with ACMG guides, etc would be pay courses.

3) Training should be a process and not an event.  In my experience, some of the least able mountaineers are individuals who have taken one or two week crash courses in mountaineering and then failed to make that part of their life on a regular basis.  It is the continual practice and learning that makes a good mountaineer.  For participants to the training that I post on the schedule, there is no maximum number of times you can join us for any of the training.  And each time I participate in running a training session I also learn new things and refresh my skills.   So this leads me to my belief that for someone to be in a position to pass this knowledge on they have to be a person who has mountaineering engrained into their life and that the skills have been honed over a long period of time. 

4) Ultimately the people whom we have voted in, trusting them to guide the BCMC, should be the people who vet (or decides who will  vet) members who are interested in volunteer training.

5) Recognition/Compensation/Incentives - I don't believe that incentives are needed to produce the best quality training.  I believe that there are extremely experienced people in the BCMC who have the skills, time, patience, and knowledge to train the new members.  Meeting new people, learning new skills, hone old skills, and a generally fun time are probably enough for most mountaineers  (except perhaps that one day in Squamish where it sleeted on us for two days straight while we built anchors... that was a bit tough...).  I have been touched when occationally in the past, after a good training session, the team said "hey, here's a bottle of wine to show we appreciate it".   No one ever said to me when I started... "Well, I'll take you up Garibaldi... but you have to make it worth my while" .  They simply smiled at the Newbie and said "sure, your in".

6) Quality - simply put... if you are going to pass information on... you had pretty be damn sure you are 100% about it being right... and understanding WHY it is right, and why other things are wrong (and all the grey stuff in between).

7) Quantity - In order to meet what appears to be the interest out there... I think we would need at least what I call the BASICS training run every 4 months, with INTERMEDIATE every 8 months.

8) Insurance - there needs to be clarification on liabiliy insurance for people leading training.

I think there's a lot of people who never visit these forums. If you haven't tried, you might be able to get more feedback from a monthly social or an executive meeting.

Incentives:

I do think there should be some sort of minimal incentive involved for the people who are willing to devote the time to train others.

At a minimum, at least reimbursing for gas money by the club would go a long way to making for happier trainers (we do it in SAR, and it's nice to know you're at least not losing money when you're volunteering).

-Mike

I have a couple of comments but please keep in mind that I am new to the club this year and have no knowledge of how you train or how the trainng programs work with the exception of what I've read.

I am interested in doing some training in the future. If there isn't already, I think there needs to be some sort of Org chart listing individuals who will be in charge of training and training material. Those people would be the highest qualified and the overseers of some sort of train the trainer sessions who would then be listed as trainers. That would give you the foundation on how to determine who is qualified. The qualification would be based on knowledge of set lesson plans and experience (how many times they have taught) Part of the training would be voluneteering as a second instructor with the more senior instructor assessing the trainee. Some way or another you have to monitor what is being taught and a good way to do that is having set lesson plans.

Something like this anyway.

Obvioulsy this is just an opinion on some sort of structure. This would help ensure quality/consistency/ improvement and so on. Most of this starts with well thought out lessons plans.

As for volunteering, compensation for fuel would be nice but at the same time if people car pool and so on fuel costs go down. A volunteer is a volunteer so no expectation maybe reduced club fees as a token.

I agree with Justin that by volunteering to train also lets you know what the skills are of those your climbing with so its in everybodies benefit to want to train.

Another possibility is the mentor ship program some memebers are writing about. If you are asking whether or not to end the free training, then offer some sort of mentorship where at the begining of the season experienced climbers agree to mentor one or two club members for the whole season and include the new climbers in day climbs where you start the season taking them to the bluffs for some top roping then to the apron for some multi-pitch and so on throughout the summer with the same person. For instance, If I was a mentor then I have one or two people assigned to me for the season and over the course of time would have to include them in a number of climbs and teach them a number of things which were laid out in lesson plans  and so on. I would be interested in being a part of something like that

Anyhow

thanks for reading

Andrew

Hey Andrew,

Great idea about mentoring. That would also allow strong relationship nodes to be built within the club, as well as a sense of ownership over the whole mentoring process by all involved (e.g. if I were mentored, I would feel even more motivation to want to pass along the knowledge, like a torchbearer). Hopefully there would be a favourable proportion of mentors to interested students ... And small group situations are, I think, generally better learning environments.

This sounds great but I am curious what you think about when it comes to the point when those first generation students that have been mentored either take on students of their own or teach courses to the larger majority of beginner club members. Would that be the cycle...mentors take on a few students then those students become mentors and take on students of their own and so forth? Or do first generation students at a certain point have to teach courses consisting of a larger number of B.C.M.C. members? Although I do think small mentor groups perhaps have a higher level of competency and it is a better learning environment I don't think the club would be able to satisfy the growing number of beginner members that are just getting into things like climbing, skiing, and mountaineering without larger instructional courses.

Thanks

Hello Justin, et al,

I have been fortunate to be able to "train" through the club, I do appreciate the financial benefit for the training I got. My basic rock climbing and backcountry ski training was through the club and my basic mountaineering was through Canada West.

feedback on:

- how much training does someone need before they can run a training session?

* Not much. The level of  training offered would be reflected in the subject offered and experience of the person offering the training

- are there members out there who are interested in dedicating 5+ weekends annually to run training sessions?

* Yes, I am one.

- should the free training sessions with members be killed, and simply move to a fully guide led pay course program?

*No. Training offered by the club should not conflict with nor compete with certified guide programs.

- how would you assess if someone was "qualified" to pass their skill set on?

*The assessment of skills is at a minimum, a two step process, 1) the presenter(assessee) feels qualified, 2) assessor agrees

- should there be an incentive to become a volunteer trainer?

*Not necessarily. We are a club, as members, a common goal is to travel in the mountains. As members we collaborate on developing skills to do this. Having trained some or all of the people you will travel with in the mountains should be a very strong be incentive.

- how closely should the model follow the long history of mentorship within the mountaineering community?

*Outline the  history of mentorship.

- if you are a seasoned, experienced, mountaineer... what is stopping you from passing on the knowledge that you have?

Not sure if I qualify but.......... not sure.

- anything else on your mind on this topic.

* Justin, I have done lots of training/workshops with you, so thanks.

This is a really tough situation and really brings to light the big questions from no charge training, mentoring qualifications.....

In my opinion, being a member of a club does bring with it some responsibility. So to answer Carson I would hope that those mentored would in turn become mentors themselves. As mentors become more advanced in thier own abilities they increase the challenges.

Carson raises a great point, which is how do you deal with the growing number of members? 1:1 1:2 ratios probably won't cut it. I have no idea what the figures are of newcomers. This would take a great deal of structure and cover all areas hiking, skiing, climbing and so on. What's the ratio between how many new members renew for the second or third year. Maybe first year members take group classes and pay a fee(fully guide led pay course program)  then second year members can enter a mentoring program with no fee (following the history of mentorship in the community), third year members become mentors and so on (continual improvement/succession panning). I don't have much experience in the club environment. How do you get club members  to participate in a greater capacity than just signing up for trips without making people feel over committed and you start losing memberships.

How do you structure this in a way that it's not a business but still meets the demands and needs of an obvioulsy growing club membership

Anyhow,

I haven't been a member long enough and don't know enough about the club or club history to answer any of this