PLB, SPOT, sat phone...

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I recently put together a spreadsheet comparing the main options available out there. It's not perfect, but may be interesting to others. You can view it (or download) here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1LVs5sGw5pacUFuNnZxU2ZUQUE/edit?usp=sharing 

 

3 reasons or motivations for me to have done this:

1. I wanted to get something for myself (an SOS beacon).

2. I would like to see the club volunteer instructors having access to something for their course if they will be outside of cell phone range and that they don't already own a device of their own. One option is to use the club sat phone, but I also wanted to look at other options (we may have more than one course, for example).

3. The club sat phone is getting old and we will need to start thinking about whether we purchase a new phone or not. For now, we have purchased a new battery for the existing phone.

 

Enjoy! Let me know if you see any obvious mistake or have other input -- keep in mind that we're all doing this as volunteers... Smile

@peterm - 154 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Nice job in gathering the info. I think a sat phone is the most versatile option. The device is purpose built to operate in severe conditions, very little training needed to operate, no second guessing if message has been passed, real time passing of information. Keep the current phone or get a new one. Well worth the expense.

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I agree Peter. Sat phone is the most versatile device, but also costly and/or inconvenient to rent for every time one goes on a day or weekend trip out of cell range. That's where having a PLB or SEND device may make sense to some.

@peterm - 154 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I have a Spot Tracker and find it useful. Very simple, not very expensive. I have had it now for 3-4 years and have not felt the need to " upgrade" to text or voice capabilities. There is some concerns because it is send only, and I have not had any problems about not being able to get my messages through. I have leant my device out and I think it has been used once to summon assistance. All of the devices you have listed will work well.

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

That's good feedback, Peter. Thanks. It does seem like the SPOT has worked well for many in SW BC.

@AlisonLister - 4 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

We were looking into exactly that question for the past couple of months and in the end went for the new In Reach SE.

 

This uses more modern satellites than the SPOT (big plus as one of the biggest negatives of the SPOT was that sometimes it took a very long time to get the messages out and this one seems better...)

Uses the same 'call centre' (for lack of better word) for receiving the messages and sending help as the SPOT. Both good and bad: not the same as the direct connection you get with the PLB, commercially run, but 2-way (see below).

The main advantage over the SPOT that convinced us is the 2-way communication via short messages. It can both send and receive custom messages so you know when/if help is on the way or not. This hopefully alleviates also some of the issues that have been reported (rumours or true I don't know) with the SPOT centre having to make executive decisions to send help or not.

There are a bunch of different packages (like the spot) that are monthly fees that include or not tracking and number of text messages.

You can message anyone and they can message you back: rescuer or friends.

There's also the option to put the subscription on 'hold' if you won't use it for the month (a few $ a month, to keep the account active).

 

We felt this was a good compromise of weight (like a big old GPS really), price, reliability (at least now that the firmware issue seems to be resolved) and ease of use.

 

Note: the older model of the In Reach did not have a key-pad but custom messages could be sent from a phone. 

The new one (SE) is a different shape but lighter than the old one and has both options: use the cursor (rather like the garmin GPS joy-stick, if you know what I mean) to type the message, or pair with the phone and type there. Both have the SOS function independently of the cell phone (think that's the same for the SPOT).

 

Just our 2 cents,

Alison & Wojtek

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

That's also very good feedback, Alison. You mentioned a firmware issue with the InReach. I didn't come across that. Can you tell me more?

 

@AlisonLister - 4 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I found some mentions of it for the first ones shipped (so reviews in June or so).

For example amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/DeLorme-AG-009871-201-inReach-Satellite-Communicator/product-reviews/B00BX7TJ2O

There don't seem to be any recent reviews complaining about this, to me indicating that the newer ones are shipped with the firmware update.

Since then, the main complaints have been about the lack of 'lockable' keys (other than the SOS)

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Short clip on U-Tube on the new InReach SE. The fact it uses the Iridium network is a big plus. This is a cool unit but it will be good to hear more about how well it works in the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3njHJTvnYU8&feature=youtu.be

@Ben - 82 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I have a PLB and while I have never used it I like the fact I believe that it has better coverage that the SPOT. I know lots of people who have not had spot messages delivered......one was a fractured skull on Baker. The SPOT message got through but not for 8 hours and they had started walking out by then figuring no one was coming.....

I think the PLB is the best tool if you just want SAR ($250 good for 6 years). Sat phone gives you lots of options but is more costly. Spot is $100 to buy and costs $ per year.

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I reached a similar conclusion to you, Ben, and bought a ResQlink PLB in order to have a reliable SOS alert capability (get the SAR in). The downside is that if you're dealing with any kind of a complex rescue, the lack of 2-way communication will likely result in further delays. That's why I was also interested in the InReach Se unit, but it's a fairly new unit and want to see it getting more use in the field first.

 

As for the SPOT, pretty much every user I talked to said he/she was satisfied with the unit... however, there are too many reports of missing messages out there for me to trust the SPOT. The issue with the SPOT is very basic in that it uses a fatally flawed network architecture: a bent pipe satellite network architecture. In simple words, this means that unless the GlobalStar satellite sees both the SPOT device AND a ground station at the same instant in time, the message will be lost despite the SPOT device LED showing a successful transmission to the satellite. This means the user believes that the message has gone through but that the satellite discards the message as it cannot be sent through to a ground station at that moment in time. There is no store and forward capability in a "bent pipe" architecture (unlike the COSPA/SARSAT network for PLBs) which means that the user can never be sure whether a message has actually been transmitted or not. In my opinion, this is unsuitable for an SOS device.

 

Of course, there's no possible confusion when using a sat phone. You know whether your call is getting through or not. The cost is a bit high for everyday use, so I didn't choose to go that route. I would rent a sat phone for any longer ski traverse or similar trip where 2-way communication is a must.

 

Bottom line, buyer beware! You may not be getting what you think you are buying when it comes to emergency communication devices... Take a look at my spreadsheet (it's a good start) and do some of your own research.

@wernerg - 156 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I am against buying a new sat phone - with a little planning it can be rented in Vancouver at various places. For $ 1495 we will get much less use out of a sat phone than if we buy 2,3 and up to 5 ACR-PLB's for the same money - not to speak of the annual cost of $720 (?)

1. The club has a policy (as far is I remember) NOT to buy equipment that is rentable in Vancouver.

2. I estimate (bet) that 2,3 -4 PLB's will see much more club-internal rental days by more members than only 1 expensive/more sophisticated/ heavier sat phone.

3. The sat phone is only operational down to -10C, the PLB works down to -20C...which makes the PLB saver - you don't have to have it on your body in most cases at the coast.

4. ONE  sat phone for all  BCMC climbers will be like ONE Mercedes (great car, great comfort, good safety record) where we would need 3-5 Volkswagen for  the masses/ that can and will be used/rented all the time for very little money.

5. Those few who think they need an expensive and more versatile-comfortable Sat Phone: Please rent it for your own money! - It is usually used for extreme back country trips which are  planned some time ahead and renting is no problem.

6. Buy for MANY OF OUR MEMBERS 3,4,5 PLB's for the same money and many climbers will enjoy the safety of having  those PLB's on many many local as well as on a few exotic trips.

The PLB works world wide, down to -20C. It is the simplest, most user friendly,  safety machine!

 

---- 3,4,5 PLB's will provide many more safe trips for more members than one single/expensive sat phone! ---

--- First priority should be 2,3,5 PLB's "for the masses".

 

 

 

@gum - 27 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Another review:

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear/pilot-supplies/buyers-guide-personal-locator-beacons 

 

I rather think that individuals can - and have done so - buy their own VWs while the club, for their benefit, affords the Mercedes and keeps it running in good order.

@TonyK - 3 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Francis -

As a member of both ACC VA Section and BCMC, thought I'll share a bit about what ACC is doing. You are correct, the ACC is thinking of retiring our old IRIDIUM 9500 phone; it's nearly 14 years old and starting to fall apart. We replaced the batteries about 3-4 years ago.

 

The Section recently decided to buy one SPOT and one Delorme InReach SE to try them out. But we have not decided yet whether to continue with the satphone or replace it with a new model. I have been doing some research and reached much the same conclusions as your spreadsheet and the discussion here. The emergency response capability of SPOT and InReach is still a bit dodgy in my view. The InReach SOS messages go through an emergency response centre in Houston. Others have reported a wide variance on how quickly rescue authorities, especially outside the USA, are contacted and dispatched, and there's no practical way to test it short of having a real emergency. Also SPOT and InReach both have a limited choice of non-emergency contacts. I think InReach allows up to 8 e-mail contact addresses.

 

To me the advantages of 2-way voice communication of a satphone to the public telephone network are many for both emergency and non-emergency use.  Text is fine for non-urgent routine status reporting, but I would want to have a satphone for a real emergency where you need to coordinate a rescue in real-time with authorities.

 

I remain firmly in favour continuing to provide a satphone rental service to members, as I think it's a good benefit of membership. True, one can rent commercially, but the clubs can offer price and short-term availability advantages. I would argue that for both BCMC and ACC.

@wernerg - 156 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

 

Please get 2,3 or 5 PLB's to reduce the risk for 'the many' --- Don't buy 1 Mercedes-like Sat Phone to reduce the risk for 'the few'.

1. That members in the past can and did provide for their own Volkswagen-like or 'basic' PLB is just NOT my experience. I organized over 100 club trips so far - and even during the past 1, 2 years - only on 2, 3 trips we had someone with an unreliable Spot and even less with a PLB with us. By far most of our club trips (95%?) have NO reliable emergency beacon with them!

2. Climbers with the 'Be Cheap Mountaineering Club' don't all have the means to quickly go to MEC and buy a PLB for $300 or a Spot for $190 that additionally carries a hefty $150 yearly charge.

3a) What I assume climbers do/accomplish with the 'Mercedes-like' safety service of a Sat Phone:

Get weather reports, avalanche reports on long - mostly private-  trips.

Contact family, partners if delayed

Contact work/their business/call their clients

Organize altered travel plans for choppers/planes and ground transportation.

Organize rescue - SAVE LIVES!!

b) How many outdoor-member-days were covered with our Sat Phone during past 6 or 12 months?

Having no confirmed figures at hand, here is my Fermi estimation: During past 6 months 4 trips with 4 days with 4 persons would generate 64 outdoor-member-days in 6 months or around 128 (?) outdoor-member-days per year that were covered by a Sat Phone. (Put in your own estimated figures -or better- get more correct figures from our rent-out list.)

It would be important to find out and analyze  to whom and for what trips the Sat Phone was rented in the past 6 or 12 months. I guess most Sat Phone rentals were for private trips with a mix of none members and club members and not for club trips. Peter G. should be able to give us this key information from a rental list he probably has.

4a) What can be accomplished with a safety service via 3 or 5 PLB's - the basic Volkswagen version for MANY:

Organize rescue - SAVE LIVES!!

b) How many outdoor-member-days can be covered by 5 PLB's during 12 months?

Again, having no confirmed figures at hand, here is my Fermi estimation: The BCMC had on its schedule last year: 62 trips BC Skiing, 33 trips Mountaineering, 20 trips Instruction, 15 trips ice climbing. That comes to 130 trips where a PLB would help. With 4 members, 2 days this results in around 1040 outdoor-member -days per year. If we have 5PLB's maybe 60% of those days/trips can be covered with PLB's? That means...

around 624 (?) outdoor-member-days per year can be covered by 5 PLB's!!!

Compare this with 128 outdoor-member-days that probably were covered by our Sat Phone during the same time.

 

My only Assertion coming from this Fermi estimation is: The value in...

a) successful rescues and saved lives -and-

b) peace of mind for MOST club members and their families

we get out of 5 PLB's versa 1 Sat Phone will be 4-6 times higher!

 

5. Wouldn't it be good to have during next 2,3 years a reliable safety device/PLB beacon ON ALL relevant club trips?

Let's get started with 3, 5 PLB's and see how far we come. Also think about the 'peace of mind' for many of our members we can provide if we have a PLB on all relevant club trips. In addition this increased safety feature has a significant marketing value - particularly for new members.

6. Also - Some members who prefer a Merceds-like Sat Phone may be more in a position to pay a slightly higher rental fee once in 1,2 years at commercial outlets as opposed to average climber Jane Doe who would need to buy for $300 a PLB or pay additional $150 each year for her Spot service whether she uses it or not. How fair is this?

7. If we buy a Sat Phone, the outcome will likely be during one year:

5% of members will enjoy the comfort, the reduced rental fee and a five-star-service of a Sat Phone

5-10% of members will buy or already have a PLB/Spot service for around $300

90% of members on club trips (somewhere near 1000 outdoor-member-days) will go without protection of a reliable emergency device!

 

Please get 2,3 or 5 PLB's to reduce the risk for 'the many'

Don't buy 1 Mercedes-like Sat Phone to reduce the risk for 'the few'

Sat Phones can be rented - PLB's can't be rented.

The 'amount of Safety' 5 PLB's will produce will be many-fold of what 1 Sat Phone will produce.

 

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

I don't see any reason why the club couldn't have both PLBs and a sat phone, so we're not facing an "either or" decision. However, the issue in renting equipment to members is always about logistics:

where is the equipment rented from and returned, who takes care of the rentals and collecting money, who looks after the equipment, what happens if the equipment is lost/damaged and who takes care of collecting, etc, etc, etc. Of course this is a bigger issue the more units are being rented out and the higher the rental frequency is. I'm not at all convinced that the club is ready for taking this on.

 

My recommendations to the executive at this point are:

1. Not to purchase a new satellite phone. The existing phone is still operational and testing performed so far by Peter Gumplinger appears to show that it is still reliable. The club should continue renting out its sat phone. Renting from a commercial outfit is also an option for members wishing to get access to a newer phone.

2. Require that all volunteer instructors for courses where a fee is paid to the BCMC have an emergency communication device for the course. This can be a cell phone (where reasonable to expect cell coverage), or a satellite device (PLB, SEND or phone). 

3. The BCMC should purchase a ResQlink PLB as an option for instructors (in item 2 above) without their own personal device. The Sat phone is another option. The PLB is a good option for the club to purchase at this stage as it is much simpler to operate and maintain (with multiple unrelated users) than a SEND device.

 

I hope this helps.

@edward - 4 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Would it be possible/a good idea to try and make an arrangement with a local retailer (e.g. Valhalla) to handle BCMC rentals?

 

It could provide a location where gear could easily be rented from and returned to etc.

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Edward: have  you come across retailers willing to rent someone else's gear and take responsibility for it? It would be perfect for the club but unlikely for a retailer to want to take that responsibility.. Let me know if you have an 'in' somewhere.

@mikehamata - 27 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Maybe another option to consider, but maybe not a game changer:

 

http://theadventureblog.blogspot.ca/2014/02/adventure-tech-iridium-announces-new.html

@peterm - 154 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

i like the Iridium Go option

@FrancisStPierre - 319 Posts

Created: 12 years ago

Looks interesting and perfect for a basecamp situation where multiple people want data access. i wonder how much the subscription will cost. I'll check it out and add it to the spreadsheet once it's commercially available. 

@iegres - 89 Posts

Created: 11 years ago

I have come across different SOS devices and general feeling is a disappointment. The technology regardless where it is coming from doesn't seem to be there yet. My new SPOT GEN 3 routinely fails to deliver  10-20% "confirmed" messages, McMurdo Fastfind purchased new at MEC was completely dead upon self test (returned) and Delorme In Reach delayed activated SOS message for hours in a serious accident (Crown on Father's Day 2012), so that when North Shore Rescue finally got it the victim was already in hospital (thanks to 911 call made from regular cell phone ). No reason to be enthusiastic yet. Would not count  on any device except posting on Facebook or emailing "hello" to grandma.